Curse

GedePod · May 19, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I love PvP in most online RPGs I have played(like DAOC,WoW,SWG,Diablo) but I think GW is just so hard to understand.

It's very hard to find out what to bring. It's like that if you dont equip yourself with exactly like the right stuff, and meet the right kind of person - you are dead.

and im having a very hard time trying to really understand the basics. I think skill descriptions are complicated, and im not sure about so many things.

And I cant really find any like minded people to play with. I just did the PvE portion with henchies mostly or yelled LFG. But for pvp it seems really like if your just alone there is no room for you

do you think they might someday add a hugh battleground were everyone can go out by themselfs and fight individuely, because finding a good guild and reading the internet for hours on the latest FOTM template is not very casual gamer like?

Its the point that people are just supposed to jump into the PvP and have some fun?

I do think its fun(love pvp) but its hard to find people with the way grouping and the chat is, and its very hard to learn all does things there is to it. or maybe im just very stupid, but I feel that many people are having similiar frustrated experience.

they want to play pvp but they cant understand it, and they loose all the time, and then its not really fun.

any other pvp lovers feel the same?

I play a simple warrior/monk, however I think healing is very powerful in this game, and if you 2 vs 1 its really not possible to win?

In a game like counter-strike I once saw one guy, who had all his teammates killed, and then he killed 10 enemies. I just dont think that that sort of skill based pvp is possible with guild wars, were you really can beat the odds and win? but maybe im wrong? i have just done random team arenas and im a part of a very small but nice guild, I dont want to leave.

Im also very shy because when I try to get into random arenas and play, I feel like people get very mad and call me all sorts of things, because im a noob. I have played the game since prophercies came out, but I simply cant understand the pvp.

its like sometimes I maybe am having luck. i picked some nice skills and got a few kills, but other times, its like if I just had 8 wrong skills i was completely useless.

does anyone feel the same?

Legeon · May 19, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by GedePod

I play a simple warrior/monk

There's your problem...

MelechRic · May 19, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Go to the dedicated forums here at Guru for whatever character you'd like to PvP with. There are threads in each forum that have a long list of builds. People also post their builds for others to critique and try out.

When you're learning it's fine to duplicate other people's builds. That way you can have some success and also fiddle with the build a bit without being frustrated by losing all the time.

You should also do three things:

1. Play through either chapter's PvE content entirely with the class you intend to PvP with. This will teach you a lot about what is and is not effective in terms of skill combos. (Granted, PvE is decidedly easier than PvP, but at a minimum you will learn several useful skill combos.)

2. Play in the Random Arenas for at least two weeks. Yep, it's going to be sheer hell because RA is full of annoying 12 year olds. However, you'll learn how to be self sufficient and learn a lot of dirty tricks and how to defeat them. You'll also learn how to apply your own dirty tricks.

3. Get into a guild that likes to GvG and do HA. They will be able to give you tips on how to improve your game and also help teach you the ins and outs of the PvP maps.

If you do these things then the PvP part of GuildWars won't seem so daunting. Also, 8 skills may seem like a limitation, but it's the part of GuildWars I enjoy the most.

Cheers!

Quajai · May 19, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I do believe PvP can be very involved if you want to get good at it. It can take a lot of research and practice to be really good. Various websites and forums have a wealth of info if you really want to get better. I'm sure you can find many that are willing to help you out. I've too been doing more PvP lately but I don't really plan on getting really into it. It seems like more work than I'm willing to put into it right now. But I've been doing some guild battles and random arenas and it's been fun. I just try to pay attention to what I see others doing and what has been happening to my character and try to figure out better builds and better approaches in battle.

MelechRic · May 19, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legeon

There's your problem...

There are quite a few good Wa/Mo build out there. The real problem is that everyone and his brother knows how to defeat a Wa/Mo. When I farm RA for faction I'm primarily there because there are so many Assassins and Warriors that don't know how to play their classes. They are easy pickin's.

All the OP needs to do is not be "easy" in terms of build and tactics and he'll do much better in PvP.

EDIT: A tip for when in RA... if you're a Wa/Mo think about bringing some sort of hex removal. (Smite Hex). Anything to get Spiteful Spirit and other nasty hexes off of yourself. You might even want to think about changing to Mesmer as your secondary for Inspired Hex, Expel Hexes and that other mesmer skill that makes you immune to hexes for a while.

Kaguya · May 19, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Also doing the new Factions competitive missions is pretty good way to learn. I haven't PvP'd that much in GW before, until I smacked few rounds in Jade Quarry/Fort Aspenwood. Still stuck there..

Just slap up something, play, figure out the weak spots (shouldn't be that hard.. I hope) and fix them some. Some warriors that have been at Aspenwood for three days, still keep coming at my monk who has, for three days, blinded them. They obviously haven't learned

My warrior was a tougher case since I had PvE'd pretty much one style with one build that was effective at it. It kinda sucked in PvP, took some time fixing it up, still needs some work

MelechRic · May 19, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

OP, here's the link for you:

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=210

Look at the first 3 threads. They are stickied and worth reading.

Parson Brown · May 19, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I don't PvP all that much, but I'll share what Ive learned.

First, hone your skills in Random Arenas. There's no "LFG" or "Forming Rank 15 IWAY." Now random is different from Heroes Ascent in that you want to be prepared for as many likely scenarios as possible. You'll want attack skills, defensive stance, speed buff, rez and probably a self-heal.
Team arenas and Heroes Ascent are just that, "Team" activities. It is more important to fill your role in the team than to be self-sufficient. The TEAM build needs to be prepared for variables, not the individual.

While in RA, pay attention to what keeps you from doing your job. Now think of a counter to that. PvP is all about countering what the other guy is trying to build. Now here's the trick: There is a counter for every skill in the book. That's why builds are constantly evolving. I defeat you, so you adjust to what I'm doing and beat me next time, so I come back with something to beat your new build.

JOIN A GUILD. There, I said it. If you want to PvP beyond Random and Team arenas, you'll need people who you play with on a regular basis. Why? First because everyone else there is either playing with friends or looking for someone with a high rank. Second, because even if you do manage to get in a PUG (and I've only EVER managed to get in a PUG in HA as a monk), you'll be facing organized teams and losing 15 times in a row gets old, believe me, I know.

Finally, remember PvP is a group activity. Be flexible if someone asks you to adjust your build to help the greater good. And if you are using a PvE character, don't bother with PvP until you're level 20 and have all 200 AP.

Thom · May 19, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

There are builds that will let you overcome overwhelming odds (take 55 monks for example). Each build has it's own plusses and minuses. The skill in pvp comes from several different areas, knowing your skills, knowing what works well together, and actually putting it all together. Your best bet is to take a look at the different builds people have put together, both here and at other spots on the net. Figuring out why someone would construct a particular build is a large part of the battle when it comes to making your own good build.

As a Wa/Mo, most people will laugh at you because of the stereotype that has formed with regards to wamo's, think they are invulnerable. As a warrior, your typical job is to protect the softer members of your team, not necessarily deal out huge amounts of damage, though every little bit does help. The simple fact is, for every build a person can think of, there is usually atleast 1 build that will counter it perfectly, if there isn't, then it's not a matter of all builds suck except for that one, but something in that build is not balanced well and needs some form of tweak.

PvP doesn't have a lot of room for noobs at the moment. The only possible place were you could find players horrible enough to solo 4v1 is RA and perhaps alliance battles. Dargon is absolutely right in that the game requires considerable intellegence to play well. This is not your dumb jock, boom-headshot game. That said, you can always copy someone elses pro build and run it making yourself a fairly good player.

Wa/Mo's are normally inferior warriors since your tiger's fury W/R or shock W/E normally perform better. A good warrior's first job is to do damage and interrupt. The only way you can reasonably protect in this game by interrupting and bringing pressure to the opponents. Warriors have the most damage per second in game, so use it. You defense skills should only be there to support attacks. The only Wa/Mo I'd play is a Contemplation of Purity warrior running veil or perhaps mending in random. Mending would be my only heal, the rest would be devoted to killing quickly.

Navaros · May 19, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

GedePod, no, you will never be able to solo 10 people in Guild Wars or anything like that.

Guild Wars is designed in such a way that the individual player is weak, and limited in what he can do. The individual player must become boosted by the skills (by skills, I mean skills on the skill bar, not just ability to play well) of his team mates.

Warrior/Monks are no good for PVP. First thing you should do is change your class if you want to be accepted into good parties, because no good party would take a Warrior/Monk in PVP.

nohooiam · May 19, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

the biggest problem with new players trying to get their foot into the door is the lack of involvement with the pvp community.

newcomers have to get out of the solo everything mentality, and try work their way into the already established pvp circles. without networking, its almost impossible to get involved with organized pvp.

other posters have mentioned reading up on builds on tactics. this is fine and dandy, but means nothing without hands on experience. it doesn't really matter if the OP wants to play a wammo. the question is whether the OP can improve his play strategy and develop a build suitable for his play style.

similar to a rts, guild wars has a steep learning curve due to the amount of hands on experience necessary to become proficient. my recommendation is to just throw the book out of the window and play whatever works for you (but make sure you do it with other people!)

Cyril Aspect · May 19, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

<------IGN same as forum name

Hey I would be perfectly willing to help out and answer any questions you have in game.

Also if you'd like you can come with us in Team arenas.

PvP in GW when you learn it is excellent so I'm always up for helping people if i have the time.

If anyone else needs a hand send me a PM

(and before we start any sillyness no i'm not syaing i'm an amazing player but I do have enough experience to help people out.)

Rha Carnak · May 19, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

I believe that most people's suggestions are valid and good but I'll suggest something different. I believe what you really need is research. It's a slow and long learning process however there are much better tools to help players today than there were when a lot of others first began learning the pvp details.

1. Watch, watch, watch the observer mode battles and pay close attention to the builds that are run. Write them down if need be, watch them over and over again if need be. Reason out why those particular 8 skills might be used. And pay close attention to when and how people are using those skills. This will help you learn some of the basics more quickly. Personally, some nights all I do is watch other guilds battle to see what they are doing, what kind of tactics are they using, trying to figure out the attribute layouts, why they are using a particular set of skill combinations.

2. There is a great new tool called guild scrimmages that you can run, get 1 other person from your guild to go into a scrimmage against you and then setup some skills and then goto town. See what kind of damage the skill does, how it works, how it's countered, how it's combined with others, limitless combinations and uses without actually having to pvp for real.

3. Nothing will beat actual experience and this is what I refer to as the GRIND, every pvp player goes through it, Some have an easier time because they know someone that can guide them through the grind in less time, however in order to be decent in pvp you can not be afraid to lose or be frustrated to the point of not trying again after losing 20 times in a row. Persistence will be the key here. I set a goal for myself like getting 20 wins in a row or something like that. Work towards that goal, get people you know that are good at pvp to group with you or get all the elite skills capped first or whatever you need to do to accomplish that goal.

4. Being on voice chat while in battle. Most people under-estimate how powerful of a learning tool that this is. Being able to talk and not type during battle is very, very useful tool not to mention being able to share mountains of ideas and information in less time than typing. Even just being able to listen and not say anything during some kind of pvp battle is a very useful learning experience.

5. And lastly writing down a build or trying to create a build on paper is a good excerise. You'll remember the details of that particular skill or set of skills better if you do this on a regular basis. I personally do this quite a bit and it has helped me a great deal. Knowing the skills inside and out are essential when trying to become a good/great pvp player.

6. Lastly, one of the best web sites to get great information in a very concise, short format is http://www.guildwiki.org. Take some time to read ALL of it. And I mean ALL of it. There are great articles on damage types, game mechanics, skill counters etc. Don't get me wrong that guru is also a great site, but sometimes it takes awhile to find that particular information that you are looking for.

Burakus Lightwing · May 19, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Stick with it!!
MelechRic brought up some good points. Practice in RA for awhile, use the forums to help you with builds. If that doesn't help then get comfortable using skills you like. Figure out combos, plan your offense and defense before you go in. Know what your character/build can handle offensively and defensively.

I've also played DAoC in past. It's a very different game. The Paladin class in DAoC is very strong, one of the best, W/Mo not so much in GW (learn your skills). The Wizard class in DAoC is also very strong, elementalists in GW not so much, very weak offensivly in comparison. Also The Cleric, Friar and Heretic in DAoC are very weak in comparison to Monks in GW. It's a very different game.

Dzan · May 19, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

As a warrior, your typical job is to protect the softer members of your team, not necessarily deal out huge amounts of damage, though every little bit does help.

Absolutely incorrect. Misinformation ftw.

xuemin · May 19, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

no one ever always has the right set up for PvP ^^ i got into the PvP side pretty late, and still kinda shy away from it even though i'm in a guild.

you just gotta go into Random Arena and mess around and see what works, sure it's hard at first but after awhile it gets more fun as you experiement around. i've lost tons of times when messing around but i still go to RA from time to time and if i ever dare venture to HA i usually ask the team i'm in if they have any specific skill requests.

also, everyone is or has been a 'noob' at some point. i've been one plenty of times in PvP i'm sure; Blinding Flashing casters when spamming my skills for example.

just like CS, practice will help improve your skills and chances of beating the odds. if you lose, think about what skills you wasted a slot on, what didn't work as expected, what you didn't prepare for. same as PvE really, since you have to learn how to adapt to each area.

nohooiam · May 19, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Absolutely incorrect. Misinformation ftw.

this is exactly why i'm against reading up on tactics/builds in the early stages. the op needs to make sense of the game by himself. once he has learned the fundamentals, it would then makes sense for him to experiment with different strategies so he can understand the reasoning behind the strategy.

Loch · May 19, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I see misinformation:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burakus Lightwing

MelechRic brought up some good points.

Also misinformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

1. Play through either chapter's PvE content entirely with the class you intend to PvP with. This will teach you a lot about what is and is not effective in terms of skill combos. (Granted, PvE is decidedly easier than PvP, but at a minimum you will learn several useful skill combos.)

PvE teaches you absolutely nothing about PvP. Nothing. It might teach you about basic game mechanics, but nothing regarding PvP. And why would it take the entire campaign to learn a character? Just don't even think about doing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

2. Play in the Random Arenas for at least two weeks. Yep, it's going to be sheer hell because RA is full of annoying 12 year olds. However, you'll learn how to be self sufficient and learn a lot of dirty tricks and how to defeat them. You'll also learn how to apply your own dirty tricks.

No. Just no. Randoms teaches you nothing about real PvP. By real PvP, I mean modes where you actually build a team. You might think your Dolyak Signet build or your touch Ranger is uber, but these kinds of gimmicks have no place in real PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

As a warrior, your typical job is to protect the softer members of your team, not necessarily deal out huge amounts of damage, though every little bit does help.

This is completely false. Warriors are the best damage dealers in the game, and is the only class that can keep up decent pressure. Building them as a tank is just a waste of a character on your team since tanks are not a threat when they stand there waiting to take damage.

Just ignore anything you see on public forums about PvP, except for the Gladiator's Arena forum here on Guru. Even then, don't believe much of what you read unless someone like JR- can vouch for it. Most people are just clueless about what works in PvP.

JR · May 19, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Guild Wars PvP rewards players who are dedicated, ambitious, talented, and to a certain extent; social. If you do not posses these attributes, then you will simply not make the most of Guild Wars PvP.

Burakus Lightwing · May 19, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

I see misinformation:

Also misinformation.

No. Just no. Randoms teaches you nothing about real PvP. By real PvP, I mean modes where you actually build a team. You might think your Dolyak Signet build or your touch Ranger is uber, but these kinds of gimmicks have no place in real PvP.

ok- i must disagree with you. Real PvP?!? That's a matter of Perspective - an elitest perspective. I do agree that RA/TA is very different from GvG and HA
4vs4 will always be different from 8vs8 and that will be different from 12vs12.
However RA/TA is a good place for someone new/inexperienced to PvP to get their feet wet and see how different things work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

This is completely false. Warriors are the best damage dealers in the game, and is the only class that can keep up decent pressure. Building them as a tank is just a waste of a character on your team since tanks are not a threat when they stand there waiting to take damage.

I do agree with this, Warriors are much better when they are puttin pressure on the oppostion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Just ignore anything you see on public forums about PvP, except for the Gladiator's Arena forum here on Guru. Even then, don't believe much of what you read unless someone like JR- can vouch for it. Most people are just clueless about what works in PvP.

I think anyone with some sense can take what they will from any post on the forums. Some stuff is garbage some is great. When you see enough of the same info and have hands on experience you start to get a feel for what people are talking about, good or bad.
Beware the elitests I always say and JR...some good info, at times real good info, but at times, also an Elitest.